199 | Unlocking the Power of Double Duty Songs with Carrie Nicholas and Tanya LeJeune

In this episode, Bryson sits down with Carrie Nicholas and Tanya LeJeune from Music Teacher Coffee Talk to explore the magic of double duty songs, those special tunes that can support teaching multiple musical concepts over time. They talk about why these songs are such a lifesaver when time is tight and share thoughtful tips on keeping your students excited and engaged with music they already know. Plus, Carrie and Tanya give us a sneak peek at their upcoming masterclass inside Elementary Music Edge™, packed with fresh ideas to inspire your teaching.

Episode Chapters:

• 0:00 Introduction
• 1:09 What is a “Double Duty” Song?
• 3:09 Benefits of using double-duty songs
• 7:37 Common misconceptions about double-duty songs
• 11:46 Favorite double-duty songs
• 25:16 Masterclass preview
• 27:19 Takeaways
  
  

Links and Resources: 

• The Elementary Music Summit®
• Elementary Newbie Guide
• Disabilities Guide
• Steady Beat Survival Guide
• Join Elementary Music EDGE™

Have questions or want to share feedback? Reach out to us at hello@thatmusicteacher.com - we’d love to hear from you!

Transcript

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0:01

You are listening to that music podcast with Bryson Tart, the curriculum designer and educational consultant behind that music teacher in the elementary music summit. Each week, Bryson and his guests will dive into the reality of being an elementary music teacher and how music can truly be transformative in the lives of the students you serve. Show notes and resources mentioned in this episode can be found@thatmusicteacher.com.

Bryson Tarbet: 0:35

Hello everyone and welcome back to that music podcast today I am extremely excited about our special guests, which I think might actually be the first time we've had more than one guest on the podcast episode at the same time. So I'm really excited to have Carrie and Tanya here with us. Um, we're gonna be talking about double duty songs, what that means, why it's important, um, and a lot of other fun things. So Carrie and Tanya, thank you so much for joining us here on that music podcast.

Carrie Nicholas: 1:02

Of course. Thanks for having us.

Bryson Tarbet: 1:04

So for whoever wants to pick this one up, to kick us off for anyone who might be new to the idea, how do you define a double duty song in the context of the elementary music classroom?

Carrie Nicholas: 1:16

Yeah, I'm gonna go first on this one. So, um, double duty songs essentially are songs that you can use when introducing more than one musical concept, specifically a musical literacy concept. So when we're thinking about rhythmic elements, melodic elements, form, or anything along those lines, you know, in our koai inspired curriculum, we create these song lists and we create concept plans. So for each concept you have a list of songs that you're gonna use to teach this concept. And what Tanya and I found especially. Coming out of the pandemic was we really needed to get more bang for our buck with our song list and not have one completely different list of songs to teach this element. And then a completely different list of songs to teach the next element that we really needed to start overlapping because of how little we were able to sing with our students coming out of the pandemic. And then continuing on just not being able to see our kids as often as we'd like to. So these songs give you bang for your buck as far as you can use the song to teach one element and then bring it back later. You might bring it back in the same grade level, or you might even bring it back in a different grade level. The caveat being, of course, with older students, you don't wanna bring back something that they view too baby-ish or too young. So if you're gonna bring back a song that has a simple melodic arrhythmic element to an older group of students for a reason, this still needs to have a hook, like a good game or a good activity that goes with it. So you gotta really be thinking about the age appropriate. Thing. When you're thinking about these double duty songs and also thinking about yourself, these have to be songs that you really love and enjoy because you're gonna sing them and play the games a lot, and so you're gonna get tired of yourself, so it has to be something you really enjoy.

Bryson Tarbet: 2:52

Yeah, I really, honestly, this was the biggest shift in my teaching was when I realized I didn't just have to have one song for one concept and then had to have like 400 different songs in a year. Like that was a huge shift in just my own quality of life in the classroom, but also my students. I, I noticed that my students as well. So I'm curious from your perspective, what are the biggest benefits of incorporating these double duty songs? Um, especially for, you know, you, you touched on it already a little bit for a lot of teachers who feel like we don't see our students as enough to cover all of the things.

Tanya LeJeune: 3:24

I think one of the biggest things is that if you pick repertoire that students really love and that you love and you revisit that they get excited about revisiting, that you are not taking as long to reteach the song. Um, if there's a game that goes along with it that they're really jazzed about, that's a plus. Uh, and then when you're revisiting the song, you go, oh, hey, you know. I know you understand that there's a mi ray do here, but now let's look at the rhythm and you can just ease into that second concept to teach, uh, with that material that they already know. So there's that joyful revisiting music that we love, but also it cuts down on your planning time significantly. Because you are taking the same repertoire and you are just milking it for all the wonderful music concepts you can. And, you know, we, we say double duty, but really we've got several songs that can be triple or quadruple duty. And if we're talking about things like dynamics and tempo, those are things that are really easy to incorporate. And then you can also move towards making those performance pieces, um, and adding on and having those. Kids really experience a true musical, um, you know, making this into a musical performance and bringing in all the things that makes it real music.

Bryson Tarbet: 4:48

Yeah. And what I love that we've already really kind of. Talked about a lot is that this isn't just doing the same thing over again for the sake of making it easier. Like there's so much that the students are getting out of it. There's so much that we're, we're taking it deeper we're, because we don't have to just teach a song. Then move to their literacy and then move on and do it again. We can really get deeper because we don't, we really are saving time in the classroom by not having to teach and reteach, um, brand new repertoire for every single concept. I think that is a huge, a huge thing that can be really. Beneficial in, in so many different ways. So obviously I, I know I talked saving time, that was a huge thing for me, especially with so many different preps. Um, that is a huge benefit of doing this. And you mentioned it earlier. Uh, but beyond that, how do double duty songs or triple duty or quadruple or whatever, how do they really allow our students to have that deeper understanding for students? Um, and do you find that teaching multiple concepts at the same time can actually help the students grasp them a little bit better?

Carrie Nicholas: 5:50

Yeah. What I have found with my students is, you know, when I'm focusing on just the rhythmic element of a song and they're getting that, that's great. And then when we focus on just the melodic element of a song, whether it's through stick notation or on the staff, just simple note heads, they're getting that and that's great. But the times where we bring those two things together, like adding rhythm stems to the note heads, all of a sudden, I remember doing this with my first graders for the first time this year where we were adding the stems to the note heads. And the students just immediately said, that's music. That's real music. And I'm like, yeah, we've been doing it all along since kindergarten, really. But they have that aha moment where they understand how the rhythmic elements and the melodic elements sync up. And so that brings them to deeper understanding of what music notation looks like. But even beyond music notation, as Tanya said, when, when you've really steeped yourself in these songs and they're, they're in your bones. You've sung these songs so many times, you've played the game so many times. Now we can maybe create or do new things with it. We can add an orff ensemble to it. We can create a B section by creating our own little rhythmic or melodic things that go along with it because they have the the concepts down so well. So it leads to that higher level understanding.

Bryson Tarbet: 7:02

Yeah, and I, I think I want to touch on that point of the aha moment because we've all been there, especially Kodi influence teachers, where it's like we really focus on melody, we really focus on rhythm, and then we kind of forget that they're all the same thing. And seeing our students, I've had that exact same realization with my students where they go, oh my goodness, like this is like music. I've seen this before. I'm like, yeah, we have, and, and really connecting that I think is a great way to. To again, just take it beyond just music literacy, but just like this is the next level. This is the next step of getting deeper into what this song is. So I know that we're li there are likely people that have a different. Understanding of what we mean when we're talking about double duty. Um, or maybe some, maybe they're kind of misinformed or they, they don't quite understand. Um, so do you have any common misconceptions about using double duty songs, um, or maybe challenges that teachers might face when they first try to, to implement this?

Tanya LeJeune: 8:00

Um, I think one of the big challenges that you might encounter is that you might bring a song back and then kids are not excited about it. If that's the case. Don't use that song, go to something else. Uh, there's so much repertoire out there, right? So it has to be something that you love or else you're not gonna be excited about teaching. It has to be something that get the kids are excited about. Uh, 'cause otherwise the learning's just not gonna happen. So that's something that you need to always keep in mind. And it's, you gotta read the room. If you are doing, um, some songs within a lesson and you will notice, oh, these songs are. Things that the kids love the game, they love putting the osana to this. I'm gonna make sure I star that and make a mental note or make a physical note that this is something that I could bring back. If there's a song that, that, for whatever reason, that the kids are like, eh, you know, not into, uh, it could be they need more time with it. But if you bring it back, lesson two, lesson three, and they're still still not excited about it. Um, even if it's not a double duty song, I would just still just get rid of it. Um, I've been teaching a long time and I learned, well, it took me a little while to learn that I can't teach music that I don't love and the kids can't learn through music they don't love. So I wanna make sure that it's stuff that everybody is excited about. Um, so you wanna make sure that's happening also. With the songs that you use that are double duty songs, you gotta really know your repertoire. And I know that there's a misconception that if it's a short, easy, say first grade song, well you know what's to know. That's, there's not much to to hot cross buns. And yet when we do our, um, song analysis within codi training programs and we really look at the melodic structure, the form, the rhythm, all of the things within a one song, we see all of these parts that we can. Teach with, or maybe things that we can't teach with, but that's why I really value my Codi training is because creating that song collection not only gives you a body of repertoire to work with, but you really have to, you get to know those songs, you have to, because when you are doing the analysis of all these little things. You know, you're just singing this song over and over again. You're looking at intervals, you're looking at the tone set, you're looking at all those things. And I know as a level one code I teacher, a lot of times, um, my students will say, well, what, why are we doing this? Um, within a few days they understand why we are doing this, but you really understand the why. We are analyzing songs when you get back in the classroom and you go, oh my, I can use this song in this many places. And I, and I wasn't. I going to do that unless I was forced and my KO I trading forced me to analyze all those songs. So that has been so valuable to me.

Bryson Tarbet: 11:01

Yeah, I think the, oh, let, let's be honest, most of us probably have a little bit of a love hate relationship who have gone through code levels with, with analysis, and, you know, you, those are some long nights and you know, you're really, like you said, taking a completely apart and putting it back together piece by piece. But what's great about it is at the end of it, you know, it. Front backwards, sideways, literally every way so that when you get into the classroom, you can see where else it can fit. I think that is, that is something that you don't get until you get sometimes.'cause I definitely didn't understand it even, even until I, you know, was a, a few weeks back in the classroom from my first year, my, my first coding level is like what that really meant to, to do that work. So. I, I cannot agree more. So, let's talk a little bit about some of those songs that may or may not be in your collection. Um, so here's the fun part. I would love to start with you, Carrie. Um, could you share one or two of your absolute favorite double duty songs? Kind of walk us through how you use them, what concepts you use for them, kind of what, what that looks like in your classroom.

Carrie Nicholas: 12:06

Yeah, so I'm gonna share a classic that many people probably already know. It's bounce high, bounce low. When Tanya and I first started talking about this idea of double duty songs, I think this is the one that both came to mind for both of us. So I'll just sing it real quick. And I'm sorry, I have a bit of a head cold, so if it sounds a little scratchy, that's why. Um, but the song goes bounce high, bounce low, bounce the ball, too shy, low. That's it. Simple eight beat song that on the surface might seem really like what do you do with this thing? Right? Um, so the first time I introduced this song is in first grade, um, and it's a steady beat activity. And I do the classic sit in a circle and pass like a playground ball with the steady beat. Now this is like a later practice of steady beat because this is hard. It's hard for first grade students. To pass an item with a steady beat. And I've worked in some situations where the kids were not getting it. So to go back to Tanya's point earlier, okay, we're done. We're not gonna keep trying to beat a dead horse with that. But if my students are successful with the game of passing with the steady beat, which typically they have been, and they usually, I'm playing like a hand drum or something to kind of give them that support. We sit in a circle, we pass. The ball on the steady beat of the song, and at the end, whoever has the ball in the last beat is out. But here's what they get to do. They get to go play the steady beat on a Banno, and it's the first time that they've gotten to play a Banno in first grade. So getting out is not sad. And it's not scary. In fact, sometimes they kind of try to hold the ball so that they do get out on purpose. So that's a whole thing we have to talk about, and we talk about how this is just a game of luck. It's not a game of skill because when you get out, you get out. It just happens to be the person. Who gets the ball in the last beat. So that's how I introduced the song. The very first time. They haven't seen the notation. I sing it for them and their job is just to pass the ball with a steady beat. And inevitably, after we've, uh, played a couple of rounds, they're starting to catch onto the song and they're starting to sing along and I can stop singing, which is always the goal, right, is to stop singing and let them take over. So that's the first time it's introduced. Another day I might start talking about the difference between beat and the way the words go otherwise known as a rhythm. But if I haven't introduced that word rhythm, then I talk about the way the words go. So I might show them icons of steady heartbeats, meaning of an actual heart icon with little. Balls, soccer balls, or whatever kind of playground ball you wanna show. And the little ball represents two sounds on a beat. And then you've got one that represents one sound on a beat. So I'm starting to introduce this idea of beat versus the way the words go. And so we might tap it on our hands, we might snap it with our fingers. We might do different things to experience. Later on, once they know Tan Titi, we can pull the song back and now we can read the notation. Now they can read the music, the rhythm, but we're still just isolating stick notation because we're not focusing on the melody yet. Um, another big thing I use this song for, this truly is like a quadruple song for me is. Talking about two beat meter and the difference between strong and weak beats. So instead of playing the traditional game where we pass the ball around with a steady beat, I might give each student a racket, ball ball or a tennis ball, and you can use that to go bounce, catch, bounce, catch. Bounce catch while we sing the song, which is a lot to ask of a first grader. So we have lots of caveats of if the ball rolls away, you go and get it. And we're doing this stationary with our feet flat. We're not walking around or traveling, and the goal is to bounce and catch with the beat. And what happens really beautifully with Bounce I bounce low, is that you are literally bouncing on the word bounce. When you play that, that activity, the ball bounces on the ground every time you say the word bounce. And then that translates later into identifying the strong beats. That's when we bounce it on the floor. The weak beats is where we catch it. So then we can literally do that motion in the air of. Bounce catch, which becomes a conducting motion down, up, down, up. And then later on we learn how to put in bar lines and create the measures. And isn't that great? Oh, but wait, there's more. Because then you could bring the song back if you're not sick of it. Because at this point, if you're sick of it and your students are sick of it, maybe it's time to let it go. But again, because there's so many fun things, my kids love the game. They're usually able to hang with me and I do bring it back when I'm introducing the concept of law melodic. So we have the so, so, so, so this is way later in the year after we've already learned, so, and me, now we can bring the song back and we can understand that the. Hi. Oh, and how convenient is that, that the word hi is literally a higher sound than so. So this song just lends itself to all of those discovery moments with the students orally, physically, and um, and then we can lead that into law and reading it and note heads on the staff. And then, as I mentioned before, once they are able to read it with no heads on the staff, we can add the rhythm back in. And now we're reading real music even all along we have been, but we've, it's just been tricking them into it along the way. So that's a classic favorite. So many things you can do with it. And the kids, that's one that they don't seem to get sick of. They just love those games, both the ball passing and the bouncy ball game. So they hang with me with that one for a long time.

Bryson Tarbet: 17:18

And what I love about that is you'd got all of that, all those concepts, all of the digging that deep from eight beats exactly like that. That is the, the epi I. That's also one that I use for a lot. Um. Because again, the kids, I don't know what it is about it, but the kids really do stick with it longer than you might think. Um, that's definitely one of my favorites. And I, and I love the idea of. I've actually never done it, the sitting down passing. So I learned a little new thing from my toolbox today, so I appreciate that. So I'm curious, Tanya, what your favorites are. What are your some, some of your favorite ways?

Tanya LeJeune: 17:56

Uh, so hard to choose, but I'm gonna go a little higher in grade level with a song called Hop Old Squirrel that many of us have used and know. And it sounds like this hop. Hot squirrel idle Dum d Hot squirrel idle dm. Im HotBot squirrel idle Dum d. And the first time that we learn this and play this is usually in second grade in my world, uh, because we're gonna focus on the melodic concept of Ray, a pitch between me and do. And so the game that we first play with this is I have students, uh, in trios around the room, and it's really easy to do this. After you get them in a circle where you have, uh, two students turn towards each other and there's a student in the middle, you're a tree, you're a squirrel, you're a tree, and those trees, they. Connect their limbs, their hands around the squirrel in the middle and around the room. We just have all these trees with one squirrel in the middle. Hopefully there's one person left over who is in the middle, and if not, then that person is me in the middle. And while we are singing hot boat squirrel, everyone is hopping in the middle of their tree. Um, and then at the end of the song, idle Dum d all the limbs go up and all of the students have to go to, all the squirrels have to go to a brand new tree. They cannot revisit the same tree that they've revisited. Of course, the person in the middle is going to also go to a tree. So then now we have a new person in the middle. So it's this kind of elimination game, and it's really active because we are hopping. Um, I wanna make sure there's singing also. So I don't really. I'm not picky about the hopping. Um, singing is, is better. Uh, so if we're just kind of bouncing within our trees, uh, that's great. So the first time I introduced this, do this song, we are just doing the game and the song, and this is what I would call an active part. Um. Even though it's active, it would be called a relaxation segment within my lesson, relaxation. Because I'm not asking them to decode anything. I'm not asking them to think hard. We're not analyzing anything. It's relaxation for their brains, but not for their bodies.'cause we know with teaching these younger students, or frankly anybody that moving. Is a form of relaxation, right? As long as we don't have a, um, a stopwatch and, and a competition going on. So first time we are just playing the game, getting to know the song. Uh, then when we bring it back for maybe the next lesson, we are gonna focus on the, the descending idle Dum D and how our voices go down. And my students at this point, they are familiar with dough, they are familiar with me. And then, oh, we've got this middle. No in between. Well, let's just hum on that. So we'll sing me, me, me, me, me, me do right. Or you also could sing middle. I've done that too in previous years. Uh, so they are singing with me's, rais, and D's, but they are singing Uh hum for the me. And so we'll sing different patterns with our mere do. And this also is a great time that. If next in my lesson is another Mire Do song, let's say hot cross buns. There is your lovely transition that we have that me do that goes to hot cross buns, right? So it also allows for that transition melodically. So. Melodically, we are focusing on Ray. We'll sing it. We will look at visuals where we are following dots on the board or the mimeo board, and we've got that question mark in that ray space. And it's probably online or in spaces, but it doesn't have to be. We can just be following the melodic contour. We can also. Use manipulatives and we can build patterns with me. Do or do me and mix it up. Um. There's lots of different ways. Carrie mentioned that we are doing things physically and visually and kinesthetically and orally. Uh, we can do body signs where we have our, me on our hips, the ray is on our thighs and the dough is on our knees. So instead of hand signs, I do body signs until about the mm. The middle of third grade, then I transition over to hand signs.'cause I have noticed that younger kids have more challenge doing these smaller movements with um, these kerwin hand signs. So we're doing some body signs so we can sing it with our body signs. We can sing it with lyrics, with body signs. We can sing it with Souled and hum on the ray. We can use those manipulatives, uh, then. Once we have gotten Ray into our understanding, and we enforce this with lots of other songs, with Ray in it, um, later, maybe in third grade in my world, uh, it's like early fourth grade where I would come back to this song and I would use it for tickety because we've got that and. The kids, they love this song in fourth grade. As a matter of fact, at the very end of this past school year, uh, I do a Choice Day and I list a bunch of songs that we've done for the year, for every grade. But kids can always raise a hand and say, oh, but I wanna add this, this game, and this song. And Hop Old Squirrel is one of those that even my fifth graders have mentioned that, oh, we wanna play hot olds Girl again. So that's fine if they wanna do it. Um. That's awesome.'cause we can get so much more learning out of that. So when we bring it back for the rhythm, uh, then we are looking at that idle dumb, idle dumb, and comparing that. Three sounds on a beat to what we already know. Tika Tika four sounds on a beat, and then away we go from there. And there's lots of ways, rhythmically, that we can really bring in this understanding of three uneven sounds on a beat. Oh, and there's, you know, so much more to that. Uh, but I will stop.

Bryson Tarbet: 24:21

What I love about this is recently someone commented in one of my tiktoks, basically accusing code I teachers of just singing folk songs all day. And I wish they could have been here for this conversation to see all the different levels of what that actually looks like or what that, you know, what it actually is. We're not just singing folk songs all day. So I love that. And, and again, that's, that's another one of my absolute favorites. Um, and what I love about, you know, double duty songs is that. Everyone kind of has their own different ones. Yeah. There's some that are, are kind of universal and a lot of people use them for a lot of different things. Um, but then there are certain teachers that have ones that they've just kind of latched on with and their students have really resonated with and they really are able to make it so personable and. Specific to the students that are in front of them. Um, so I really appreciate you sharing those strategies and those songs and how you use them. Um, but I know that you have many, many more and I, I'm sure that we could talk for hours. Um, so we're really excited to have you as guest speakers inside our membership Elementary Music Edge, uh, where we're gonna be diving in even deeper into double duty songs, how to use them, how to find them, and sharing some really. Some really cool ones as well. Um, so can you tell us a little bit more about what, um, our members could expect by joining your masterclass?

Carrie Nicholas: 25:37

So in the masterclass, we are going to be sharing a lot more songs than what we've already shared today, and we are planning at this point on sharing 12, but you know, maybe more, maybe less, but lots more songs and then the specific teaching strategies that go with it, showing specific examples of how we prepare. PRIs, well, maybe not so much present. We're probably not gonna get into the weeds with that. But preparing and practicing specific concepts with those different songs and all the different pathways that you can take with these songs and how we use them and have been successful with them in our classroom. We're never gonna present material that we haven't actually done with our students. So we're gonna talk about tried and true things that we've both done with our students with these songs.

Tanya LeJeune: 26:17

Yeah. And we will also be providing some freebies along with this, some visual things that you can use, connected to some of the songs that we are using. Um, some, you know, things that you can use within your classroom that really, um, solidifies that understanding and that learning for your students. And as Carrie mentioned, uh, we are really excited about sharing, sharing strategies that are visual, oral, kinesthetic, uh, and. Of course that entryway into the repertoire through the song and game.

Bryson Tarbet: 26:51

I have to be honest, I'm really excited about this. I know I say this to to, to every guest that comes, but I'm really excited, um, because again, this has been that. The, the use of double duty songs was the biggest shift in my career and my quality of life as a teacher and the amount of joy that I saw in front of my students. Um, so Carrie and Tanya, thank you so much for chatting again. I'm sure we could just keep going, keep on talking forever. Um, it's been really cool discussion. I love how we've been able to keep a practical and share what's really working your classroom. Um, but before I leave, I would love to know, you know, do you have any final thoughts or words of encouragement or anything that you wish I would've asked you that we ne we I never asked you before we go?

Tanya LeJeune: 27:29

Uh, just to drive home the idea of use music that you love and that the students love, and then use it for all it's worth and make it into, you know, fantastic music that the kids enjoy. Singing, performing, adding instruments to. I mean, you know, as elementary music teachers, sometimes I think people think that we're not doing, um, real music or it's not authentic enough and it's not like that at all. We've really. They're not born at 14 years old, and we really have this awesome opportunity in these early years to have kids have those full musical experiences through wonderful repertoire that everybody loves.

Carrie Nicholas: 28:11

Yeah. And I also just wanna remind everyone that getting ideas like this doesn't just happen on its own. Um, you have to seek these things out. So through things like podcasts and virtual trainings, that's one avenue. But of course, attending in-person workshops, KODI workshops or workshops going to your local state, MEA conference, or attending a national conference, A OSA or OAKE conference, these are the places where we got these ideas, right? We've learned these ideas from other master teachers, and then we've put our own. Withs on them and made them our own. So just reminding people to, to keep seeking out new ideas by attending both virtual things and in-person things because that's where you're gonna get those, those ideas that's gonna help you create that longevity for your career.

Bryson Tarbet: 28:55

I could not agree more. So again, elementary music edge members, your masterclass, uh, with Carrie and Tanya will be added into your member portal. If you're not a member, feel free to check out the show notes and description, wherever you're watching or listening for an exclusive trial to join us inside. Uh, so Carrie and Tanya, and anyone else listening, thank you so much for being here today. Um, and as always, thank you so much for making a difference in the lives of the students that you teach.